Patty Gasso's case for best OU coach ever. Plus, her place among all current college coaches

All that and more on The Jenni Carlson Show with Tulsa World columnist Berry Tramel.

The Women's College World Series came to its glorious conclusion with a familiar ending, OU winning the national championship. So where does Patty Gasso rank, not only among college softball coaches but also among all college coaches, regardless of sport?

And what about Caitlin Clark not making the Olympic team? 

And Danny Hurley saying no to the Lakers?

We've got a lot to talk about with our good friend and Tulsa World columnist Berry Tramel on The Jenni Carlson show. 

Before we get to that, I want to encourage you to subscribe to my YouTube channel (YouTube.com/@Jenni-Carlson) and to my Substack (jennicarlson.substack.com). I hope you consider subscribing and supporting my work today.

Jenni: All right, Berry, how are we doing? Everything good?

Berry: It's great. Good to see you, Jacko. Coming down from a softball high. Sitting around the house last night, I was thinking, ‘Wait, I don't have to be anywhere.’ The first night I sort of had at home in a long time. So in some ways, it's sort of an emotional letdown when the Women's World Series is over because that ends basically the calendar year for us. The Sooners or the Cowboys are always capable of making it to Omaha, but don't do it very often. But yeah, it was a thrilling time up at Devon Park.

Jenni: Yeah, we had, what, eight straight days of games because that built-in off day became a play day after weather messed with the if-necessary day and Florida forced OU into that if-necessary game. So games every day, right up until the end. That was pretty cool. You know what? I still have to look at my calendar with the new format, but Berry, the new format's great. I'm so glad that they changed it, built in some extra time. This year we had, I think, four weather delays, fairly significant delays. The tournament could have been a total mess if we'd have been under the old system.

Berry: Yeah, we got Thursday and Saturday, definitely four-game days in the old format. Sunday could be. And trying to get four games in? We have that once now; that's opening day, which is sort of a celebratory type atmosphere. The only downside I see is the new format sends two teams home on Day 2. That's sort of a bummer. This year it was Duke and OSU, I guess. And it's always a bummer. You want to keep people around as long as possible. But it is better to spread it out because it makes for fewer late nights, playing at midnight. And if you do get a delay, it's much more manageable.

Jenni: Yeah, they sort of have some wiggle room there. On that day that the if-necessary games got pushed back as the weather was delaying and delaying and delaying, that was sort of my thought. ‘How late could that if-necessary in the second set of games go?’ Could have been a late start. Didn't end up that way because they moved those games before the day even started. But lots to like. Lots of great softball. You and I saw lots of great softball. Fans out there saw it, but at the end, Berry, it was the same outcome that we've seen each of the last three years, six of the last eight times this tournament's been staged. That's Oklahoma winning the national championship. 

People want to talk about the seniors. People want to talk about the four-peat, which is unprecedented. I want to talk about Patty Gasso. I want to talk about her place among her peers.

Let's start with OU. There's some great coaches in OU history when you start talking about Bud Wilkinson and Billy Tubbs and Sherri Coale and just the things that they've accomplished. But Patty Gasso, she's got to be on the Mount Rushmore, but is she at the top of the list among OU coaches all time?

Berry: Yeah, I think she's No. 1. I thought that before this season. I may have thought it before last season. I can't remember. But she's won at the highest level. I mean, is it seven or eight? 

Jenni: Eight now.

Berry: Eight national titles for Patty. And it's in a sport that at one time was fairly closed off to most of the constituents. If you cracked the code and got in on the Holy of Holies, well, then it's great because only three or four teams could win it. But that's not the case anymore. 

The SEC with the way they've developed softball programs, the Big 12 with the way they've developed programs, the ACC, virtually all the places that play have a little bit of warm weather, along with the Pac schools, can produce big-time softball. 

You came to the World Series and in the old days, you'd see two or three teams that could win it. Now you see six or seven that could win it. So, very tough to win national titles, tougher than ever. The regional, super regional format is tougher to navigate through. And for Patty to have eight national titles, seven in, whatever we said there, the last 13 years is phenomenal. So I think she's the best.

Football, you know, if you win national titles at Oklahoma, you're a great coach, no doubt about it. But football is also a little closed off and not everybody has equal chance. And I think whoever you want to pick as the greatest OU football coach, some would say Wilkinson, some would say Switzer, you can make a case for Stoops. There's three great candidates. I put Gasso ahead of them. Just the way she's produced, I think she's No. 1.

Jenni: Two things you said. I'm with you. I think she's at the top and here's why. One thing you just alluded to is how much more parity and how much more difficult it is to win in this sport. When we got to the day of the tournament reveal and you see those top 16 seeds and you see the teams that aren't seeded, I thought there were probably 18-ish teams that legitimately had a chance to get to Oklahoma City. And so you start looking at the competition that's out there. And yet all that Oklahoma has continued to do is win championships in this era of increased parity. To me, that speaks to the excellence in the more recent days. 

But then I think you go back and you say, Oklahoma helped change this sport. You might even say that they were the catalyst for changing the sport. Because like you said, Berry, before Oklahoma won that championship in 2000, you occasionally had somebody spoil the Arizona-UCLA party, but it was pretty rare. Oklahoma does it, and suddenly it starts to look like, ‘Hey, wait a second. A team that's not on the West Coast, a team that's not on the west side of the Rocky Mountains can actually win this thing.’ Now programs all over have built these great facilities. They built up their programs. I think she helped change the sport.

So if we want to take this out to look at college softball coaches, I think you put her at the top there as well. Now she hasn't reached the win record. She's not ahead of the entire pack. Carol Hutchins, the now retired Michigan coach, is at the top. Great coach. I mean, winning in Michigan, it's not easy to win softball in Michigan. She tops the Division-I wins chart, but I don't know if you can put anybody above Patty Gasso. Not Mike Candrea. Not all the great UCLA coaches. You saw a lot of those coaches before I did, Berry. What's your take on Gasso’s spot among college softball coaches?

Berry: When you look at the UCLA dynasty, or maybe it's not a dynasty. A long, long run of six success. It was split between two coaches in the 20th century. Now Kelly Inouye-Perez has become the third member of that club, but. So you probably wouldn't pick Sharon Baccus or Sue Enquist. Probably wouldn't go with either one of those. 

Candrea would be the guy. He'd be the chief competitor. He had, eight titles as well at Arizona. So it's either Candrea or Patty, and they each built their program, not from scratch, but virtually. I'd have to study the numbers, study the situation. but I think Patty Gasso has reached a point where she's with Mike Candrea. One of those are the best ever. They rank one two, two one. 

If you'd have asked me in, you know, 1999, ‘Hey, the OU softball coach … one day is going to be as an accomplished and as hailed of a coach as Mike Candrea,’ I would have laughed. It'd be like saying, you know, Porter Moser is going to be John Wooden someday, or Jenny Baranczyk is going to be Geno Auriemma or Brett Venables is going to be Nick Saban. We'd say, ‘What are you talking about? That's not possible.’

Jenni: It's more a reflection on those greats. You just don't think anybody's ever gonna get to them.

Berry: Right. That's right. But you know what? Patty's done it. She has done it. It's amazing. It's crazy. Eight national titles. What an incredible, incredible … well, think of it this way. Jacko: we’ve had a 24 world series in this century, in the two thousands. OU’s won a third of them. It’s crazy. That's just nuts.

Jenni: It's amazing.

Berry: When it's exploded and everybody can play softball? And another point about parity. In the old days when OU won or had a good year or Florida State or whoever, they did it with California girls. Now the great players are from everywhere, and it's not just California or Arizona. It's all over. So everybody can be good at softball. Whole lot of teams are. But only one program is dominating, and that's Gasso’s Sooners.

Jenni: And let's remember this, too, about Patty Gasso. She's not retiring yet. She talked to me after that championship was won, and she joked about it, so then I had to ask about it. ‘Are you really retiring?’ ‘No, no, no, I'm not. I'm not done yet.’ And she had given that indication actually before the season, saying at a Rotary event here in Oklahoma City that she wanted to coach in the SEC. So obviously my thought was that she was planning at least another year of coaching. 

But who knows? I mean, she's in great health. You know, a good chunk of her grandkids live in Norman. Her son, JT, has got four kids and they're all in Norman. Her son, DJ, is not in Norman, but he's now close by. He's got one grandchild. So she's got a lot of what you would want right around her. 

So is she going to coach another 10 years? No, I don't think so. Could she coach another five? She's not done. So she's adding to that resume. Those win totals and all those milestones that she has not reached just yet, she might actually get to. 

OK, lastly, about Patty Gasso, let's talk about her among all coaches in college sports. Let's talk right now. I don't want to get in the way-back machine and compare her to John Wooden or anybody like that. But of current college coaches, all sports, who's she in the conversation with and is she at the top of that group, too?

Berry: Well, with current, you've eliminated Nick Saban.

Jenni: Right.

Berry: I'd be hard pressed to make the case for Patty over Nick Saban. I don't have to, so that's good. There's a couple of people that come to mind. Cael Sanderson has an unbelievable dynasty at Penn State. He's got some advantages at Penn State wrestling. Of course, Patty has some advantages at OU softball with the World Series being played just up the road. But Cael Sanderson comes immediately to mind. I would acquiesce to somebody else on some of the minor sports or Olympic sports.

Jenni: Because you think about all the Olympic sports we don't know anything about. Lacrosse. Water polo. I mean, there's a ton in the NCAA that I don't know anything about. 

Berry: You pointed out skydiving. Air Force won the skydiving. You said they better win the skydiving if it's the Air Force.

Jenni: Yeah, if Air Force doesn't win the skydiving competition, what's going on here? So there's a lot of those we don't know anything about, but I would probably put Patty behind Geno Auriemma just out of the sheer volume of championships. He's won, I think, three more national championships than she has. It's entirely possible she could catch him. 

It's crazy to think in the short term because they are going to have to rebuild. Their team going into 2025, it's gonna be a whole new looking Sooner roster. They're gonna return very few. So that level of excellence that has been expected over the last few years may not be there to start the year. Now we have no idea what's gonna happen with the transfer portal. I mean, Kelly Maxwell didn't go into the transfer portal until much later in the summer a year ago, and look how important she was. So who is in the portal, who Oklahoma pulls out of the portal, we don't know yet. But as far as being a team that people will say going into next year, ‘They are for-sure contenders,’ it will take some really big portal magic for that to happen. 

All that to say, when you talk about what is possible in the next five years, I mean, I think another couple of championships is out there potentially for Patty Gasso. So I will put her behind Geno right now, but I don't know if that'll be the case when she retires. We'll have to see.

OK, let's switch gears. Let's talk about Caitlin Clark, Berry. She did not make the Olympic team. This comes a week after she gets knocked down during a WNBA game, all the brouhaha from that. But with the Olympic team especially, there's been a lot of talk about people aren't gonna watch now. She belongs on the team if nothing else for marketing. So is it an outrage that she was not picked for this Olympic team?

Berry: I don't think so. I'm no expert. But I assume Caitlin Clark is not one of the 10 best American female basketball players at this point in time. I assume she's not. And she's great, but if we go by, most NBA rookies, no matter if they're rookie of the year, no matter if they're great, no matter if they're Victor Wembanyama. He is not one of the 10 best players in the league. So I assume it's the same on the WNBA. You're talking about older athletes, really good 24-, 26-, 27-year-olds that can really play. So I would assume we've got 10 to 12, at least, American females that are better basketball players than Caitlin Clark right now. So I don't think it's an outrage. 

I don't know that Olympic selections ever are made for marketing purposes. Maybe they are, but I'm not really aware of it. The Olympics sort of market themselves and so I don't think it's an outrage. I think it's just fits the narrative of Caitlin Clark is sort of the heroin against all these anti-heroes, whether it's Angel Reese or any of the bullies in the WNBA that are beating her up here in this rookie season. It fits into that narrative. But I don't think it's justified in reality. 

I think Caitlin Clark is headed for future Olympics. Maybe two. Maybe when she's 26 and 30. Wouldn't surprise me at all. But right now she's probably not deserving of a spot on the team.

Jenni: Yeah, I think you look at the roster and you see Diana Taurasi on there, who's been great for a very long time and is still great and is a leader and all the things that she brings. And then you start down the list of the guards, and it's star studded. Now, it may not be names that people are aware of like they're aware of Caitlin Clark's name, but my good friend, Michael Voepel, who I'm actually having on my show to talk about Caitlin Clark, has made the point that USA Basketball, like you just said, Berry, Olympic selection is not about marketing. USA Basketball, as Michael has said, they're not about that. They're about going and winning. And since 1996, when they had that first women's basketball dream team, that's all that the Americans have done in women's basketball in the Olympics. The game is improving around the globe, so to not send your best players?

By the way, if Caitlin Clark is picked just for marketing, yeah, she's fantastic and she's going to continue to get better, but if she's picked just to get eyeballs and then she doesn't play very much, isn't that just going to mean people are sitting there watching her on TV as she’s sitting on the bench? It seems like it could put TV in a really weird situation. Do you market somebody who is maybe getting six minutes a game? I feel like if you're trying to go win Olympic gold medals, you pick your best team. And if she wasn't part of the best team, you have to leave her off the team. I know some people are frustrated by that, but to me, if you include her for marketing, it might actually backfire in the end.

Berry: Now I will say this, if you do leave her off the team, I'd recommend going ahead and winning the gold medal because if you don't, that's the sum of all fears. You've alienated the Caitlin Clark brigade and also you didn't win gold. So, if you're going to take this, stand, which I think is completely proper, you need to go ahead and be successful.

Jenni: Alright, lastly, before we get out of here, let's stick with basketball. Let's stick with something that I know some people think is an outrage: Danny Hurley saying no to the Los Angeles Lakers? Berry, is this an outrage?

Berry: I thought it was an outrage that he even considered the job. Why would you take that job, for crying out loud? That's a place where careers go to die. They fire coaches, and they fire them quick. I made the list yesterday, but I don't have it with me, but Darvin Ham, two years, Western Conference Finals last season, out. Frank Vogel, wins the ’20 title, gone two years later after that. Just a litany going back to Phil Jackson. Since Phil Jackson, they just don't keep coaches. It's a high-pressure job. It's a difficult job. Coaching LeBron James is not easy. Really, there's been one guy that's really done it successfully, and that's Eric Spoelstra, I would say. 

The Lakers are not a franchise with a great future. Their leader is 39 years old and will be 40 next season. The other standout, the other superstar is oft-injured Anthony Davis. Beyond that, they don't have a great roster. They don't have a bunch of assets. This is not a franchise on the incline. It’s a franchise on the decline. Sign up to coach there, and you could be out on the street quick. 

Now, Danny Hurley would be back coaching Kentucky or Kansas or wherever in two years, but he's got a good thing at UConn. He's building quite the legacy. I thought it would be madness. You want to go coach, Victor Wembanyama? Hey, maybe so. Go coach the Boston Celtics? Hey, they got a stacked roster that's in its prime. Coach the Thunder or one of these other teams with a bunch of young players that have a bright future? Sure. Coach the Lakers? So Jack Nicholson can criticize you and Bill Plaschke can write bad things about you? I don't think so. I couldn't understand why he would ever consider it in the first place, other than the money. And it's my understanding that Connecticut, which I think is pro rata the wealthiest state in America, I think they're gonna be able to pay him a pretty good chunk of change.

Jenni: Yeah, last I heard he was he was not going to be destitute in the streets of Storrs, Connecticut, walking around with his hand out. 

Berry: You ever been to Storrs?

Jenni: I have. I've covered a game at the, what is it?

Berry: Gampel Pavilion?

Jenni: Gampel. Thank you. Yes. It's a very small town. It's very kind of rural.

Berry: I'm not making this up. Outside of like a convenience store in their campus corner or at the student union, I literally found no stores in Storrs. Storrs has no stores! It's the danged thing. It's literally just a little village with a massive college campus around it. It's the darned thing.

Jenni: Yeah, yeah, the thing I remember most is the dairy. Apparently they've got really good ice cream there. I didn't get a chance to go. I was there on the weekend. I think they were closed on the weekend.

Berry: The best thing about ice cream up north is you get it in the winter, it doesn't even melt on you. Take all day to eat it if you want to. Like drinking a big gulp. Take your time, take your time.

Jenni: Take all day. Yeah, one more thing about Danny Hurley. I just didn't think he was a great fit for the NBA. The way he coaches … I think his players really like him at Connecticut. I think he has a good connection, but he coaches them really hard. I just don't know if that fits. Maybe it fits some NBA teams. I don't know if that fits with the Lakers, Berry.

Berry: You can probably yell at Austin Reaves and get away with it. I wouldn't yell at LeBron James. That doesn't seem like a good career move. I mean, I don't know, Anthony Davis seems pretty sensitive, too, but he might let it go. LeBron's not letting it go. LeBron will yell back, and then it'll be all the rage for the next four weeks. And I just don't think you can be yourself coaching the Los Angeles Lakers unless you're really passive. 

Darvin Ham. Old Texas Tech wingman. Loved him to death. Good solid, low-key individual. But that's not Danny Hurley. We've seen him, the ruffled tie and the going frenetic in the middle of the game. You can't do that in the NBA. I thought it was a bad fit. I thought it was a bad, bad fit.

Jenni: Well, we will never get to see if it was indeed a bad fit because Danny Hurley said no to Los Angeles Lakers. You wrote about that for the Tulsa World. People can find it at TulsaWorld.com. What else have you had cooking? 

Berry: Next couple of days, I’m writing about the 11 a.m. kickoffs for OU football. We've only got one this coming season. Everybody party. 

And a death. I won't spoil it for you, but there was a notable death in college football, and the guy had a profound effect on Sooner history.

Jenni: A little teaser. Love it. Again, TulsaWorld.com is where you can find all of Berry's stuff. And jennicarlson.substack.com is where you can find mine.