Does Michael Hawkins give OU hope? Is Jackson Arnold done as a Sooner? Plus, OU-Auburn picks!

Tulsa World columnist Berry Tramel and I talk, too, about the defense's excellence.

Oklahoma has a new starting quarterback. 

After Jackson Arnold was benched during the loss to Tennessee, Michael Hawkins took over and will stay in that quarterback role when the Sooners play at Auburn on Saturday. 

The first SEC road game for OU was always going to be a big deal. 

Now? 

It’s got even more intrigue. I’ll talk about that and much more with Tulsa World columnist Berry Tramel now on The Jenni Carlson Show.

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Episode highlights

1:00: Michael Hawkins replacing Jackson Arnold — how the heck did the Sooners get here?

2:41: Did Brent Venables have any other choice than the one he made?

4:20: Is Arnold done as a Sooner?

5:58: Sometimes, five-star recruits don’t become five-star players.

7:47: What we saw of Hawkins, what’s most to like about him?

9:42: Biggest concern about Hawkins?

11:17: Jacobe Johnson’s switch to receiver and what it says about the young receivers.

12:51: Tip of the cap to the Sooner defense. But can it carry this team?

15:18: OU-Auburn predictions!

Producer: Jacquelyn Musgrove

Creative Director: Michael Lane

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Transcript

Jenni: Berry, as we say in newspapers, let's not bury the lead. OU has a new starting quarterback. Michael Hawkins will be the guy when the Sooners head to Auburn. How the heck did we get here? I did not have this on my bingo card. So how did we get here?

Berry: Well, we didn't know that Jackson Arnold was going to struggle this much. You know, decision making and sort of panic plays. I think we had our eye off the ball a little bit with the offensive line, the receiver injuries, and we just didn't notice as much as we should have that he just wasn't handling the job and it was not a great situation. This was not Caleb Williams or somebody taking over a Lincoln Riley offense. This was a sort of a rebuilding project. It wouldn't be easy for any quarterback. So he sort of got a bad draw, Jackson Arnold, but he certainly didn't help himself. 

He's not played well, not responded to pressure well, and I think when he bounced that lateral that wasn't even in the playbook the other night against Tennessee, I think Brent Venables said, ‘We can't do this anymore, and we gotta try something else.’ And Michael Hawkins showed enough to earn the start at Auburn. So he'll go down there and run around and try to avoid the Tigers and try to avoid the hurricane and tried to avoid defeat.

Jenni: As you mentioned, after the game, Brent Venables, when he was asked about that lateral that ended up being a fumble, he said, ‘We don't have anything backwards in the RPOs.’ And he was pretty short with that answer. I thought that might tell us everything we needed to know.

After benching Jackson Arnold and then having Michael Hawkins out there in that game against Tennessee, Berry, did Brent have any choice? Was there any real decision that had to be made as it relates to who was going to be the starter going to Auburn?

Berry: Well, I do think there was a decision because it's so different than it used to be. You know, they've got a lot of money invested in Jackson Arnold. They've got a lot of capital already spent, not just financial, but I mean, they said goodbye to Dillon Gabriel for Jackson Arnold. What's done is done. But that still has to weigh on you that this guy needs to work out while they sent away a Heisman Trophy contender. 

Also during the season, in game, doesn't matter, midweek, mid game, changing quarterbacks is a blow. It's a shock to the system, and it's not easily made as it's a decision that has to be very heavily decided. And I think Michael Hawkins, what we saw of him is enough to make it the right decision. 

And here's the thing: the Oklahoma offensive line, not getting any better because Michael Hawkins is the quarterback, but he's a mobile guy. Can run around. Saw that he ran away from Tennessee some, so that may be what this team needs is a quarterback who can flee the pocket and make something happen with his feet.

Jenni: We'll talk more about Michael Hawkins in just a second, but I wanna talk about Jackson Arnold a bit more. Have we seen the last of Jackson Arnold? I mean, it doesn't sound like you feel like with that financial commitment that maybe we have, but is he done as a Sooner? What does his future look like?

Berry: Well, I mean, he'll finish out this season and who knows if he'll be back in. If Michael Hawkins doesn't play well and Jackson Arnold will be given another chance. If Michael Hawkins gets hurt; he’s running around inviting SEC defenders to tackle him. He could get hurt, but otherwise, I think we have seen the last of Jackson Arnold, other than in Mississippi State maroon. I think he'll be down there with Jeff Lebby next season.

So I think that's sort of the pathway that we’ll see for Jackson Arnold. But again, you know, we saw Spencer Rattler get benched in ’21, right? Got another chance at Baylor. Spencer Rattler came in for a couple of series down in Waco when it wasn't going well for Caleb Williams. Lincoln Riley was in it to win it.

I think Brent Venables will, too. And if the situation arises, Jackson Arnold might get another chance, but the idea that this is the next OU superstar quarterback, five-star recruit, all those things, that's looking pretty meager in terms of Jackson Arnold's development. It looks like he's probably going to need to take his services elsewhere.

Jenni: Isn't this just a bit of a reminder, too, that occasionally those five-star, can’t-miss guys don’t become what we thought they could be? I mean, just because the recruiting services tab a guy a five star and everybody talks about how great they are, we’ve seen it over the years, yes, a lot of these guys are fantastic, but occasionally that it doesn't work out.

Berry: I mean, we saw Brent Rawls, you know, never even developed. Rhett Nomar was not great as a redshirt freshman and then sort of violated rules his way off the team. It doesn't happen all that often at least at Oklahoma that a five-star quarterback works out. 

This is the portal era. I mean, doesn't matter if you're Ohio State or LSU or USC, you know, all the big boys. Oklahoma, Texas, the transfer portal is where the predominant number of quarterbacks are coming from. If you're going to spend a ton of money, spend it on guys who have proven themselves. So that’s, to me, the key. And I think you'll see more and more five-star type guys maybe going to a another level or league rather than an Arch Manning going to Texas and sitting around for two years. Or Jackson Arnold going to Oklahoma and sitting behind Dillon Gabriel. You'll see guys go to other schools and play. And if they play well, they'll get a bonanza at a blue blood. So I think you're not going to see a ton of the Jackson Arnold trajectory anymore. People want to play, and schools want guys who are ready to play.

Jenni: Speaking of a guy not probably not totally ready, true freshman Michael Hawkins, now the OU quarterback. What you saw maybe last Saturday against Tennessee, what gives you the best feeling about Michael Hawkins at this point as the Sooner starter?

Berry: Well, I'd say two things. One is we talked about it: the mobility, the run around, maybe just what this offense not only needs but has to have. The other thing is he didn't seem scared of the moment. He went into a game in which Tennessee had all the momentum, Tennessee smelled blood, Tennessee was ready to blow that game open, and he played OK. And in the fourth quarter, he actually engineered two touchdown drives. So, you know, that was a 22-3 game. When he gets going in the fourth quarter and he made it fairly, I don't know, fairly interesting. He made it interesting. So I think that's something to build on. 

He's going to go to Auburn. He's going to play a team not nearly as good as Tennessee, but he's in a hostile environment. I don't know how much the Auburn fans have revolted on what's clearly a poor Auburn season. But Jordan-Hare Stadium is not an easy place to play. Oklahoma has been talking about that. This was, in theory, the easiest road game. The theory panned out. It's going to be the easiest road game this season. Still not easy. Auburn still plays tough defense. The offense is no good. They've got quarterback problems of their own, but Michael Hawkins, it'll be a big test. If he can pass that test, then I think the Sooners are feeling pretty good about the decision they made to change quarterbacks in midstream.

Jenni: If he just doesn't turn it over, I think they'll be feeling pretty good about the switch. What about concerns? I mean, some of the concerns that I think were top of mind for me about Jackson Arnold before the season — young quarterback, ups and downs, first-time starter — a lot of that still sticks in my head as the concerns about Michael Hawkins. What about you, Berry? What are the reasons that you think Michael Hawkins as the starting quarterback for OU might not go so great?

Berry: Well, we don't know. You mentioned as long as he doesn't turn it over. You're right. I mean, we don't know how well this guy protects the ball. He did OK against Tennessee in half a game, but he's got to protect the ball. 

And what is his accuracy like? You know, they’ve got to get the passing game going. It's pretty clear that the running game is going to be sort of stagnant all season. By OU standards, at least, with this offensive line. So they’ve got to get the passing game going. I don't know if he can throw the deep ball. We'll see. Jackson Arnold was supposed to be able to throw the deep ball. He was not effective at that. If Hawkins can do that, that's great. But, you know, find some receivers who can provide some playmaking. That's been in short abundance. How much of that is injury? How much of that is the line? How much is that the quarterback?

We've had two main themes for the OU offense this season. We've added a third, the quarterback. We didn't know the quarterback was in this kind of critical mass. But if Michael Hawkins can deliver the ball on target, I think Seth Littrell and Brent Venables breathe a deep sigh of relief.

Jenni: You mentioned finding some receivers. Well, they're getting some extra help on the receiver corps. Jacobe Johnson is switching from the defensive side over to wide receiver. He actually played both ways when he was a high school standout at Mustang. So it's a position that he has played. Obviously, will need to round into shape, learn the Sooner playbook, all those sorts of things. My question though, Berry, regardless of what Jacobe Johnson does, what about all these good young wide receivers we heard so much about? Where the heck are they?

Berry: Well, yeah, I don't know. You know, Brent said, you lose your top four receivers. Don't think it is the top four, but let's say four of the top five. Take four of your top five receivers off any team in the nation, and it will be a big blow. And he's probably right about that. 

So, the young receivers, you know, they just haven't had the chance so far. But again, they're dealing with a quarterback that OU clearly was increasingly not believing in. They were dealing with an offensive line that didn't protect that great. So maybe they still have got time to produce. 

We saw Jaquaize Pettaway sort of, you know, resurrect his career. Had like six catches in the first 10 minutes of his freshman year, 14 months ago, 13 months ago. Not done much since. But he had four catches from Michael Hawkins, I think it was, just in the latter half of the game against Tennessee. You know, maybe we'll see some guys produce like Pettaway. He's certainly going to get the opportunity.

Jenni: Obviously, we’re talking a lot about the offense as everybody is. But defense, Berry, got to give them a tip of the cap because that Tennessee offense is no joke. And while I think they might've put some of the playbook back in the back pocket after it became obvious that the Oklahoma offense wasn't going to score much on them, the defense still did a really good job against Tennessee. The defense is obviously very, very good, but how much can be put on them? I mean, this game at Auburn, Auburn does not look like they have a good offense. Just long term, can this defense carry the Sooners?

Berry: No, just like offense couldn't carry the Sooners back in ’18. I mean, I shouldn't say that. They made the dang College Football Playoff. And they were terrible on defense.

But this defense, while very good, is not the level of the Kyler Murray offense. So, you can't expect to go 6-2 in the SEC, no matter how good your defense is, if your offense stinks. This is not going to end well for Oklahoma if the offense doesn't pick up no matter how good that defense is.

But the defense is really good. You know, Jacko, I heard Tim Tebow the other day. This was before the Tennessee game. He made an interesting point. He said, ‘So far, the best SEC offenses have not gone against top flight defenses, and the best SEC defenses have not gone against elite offenses yet.’ And he said, ‘That's why I'm looking so forward to Oklahoma-Tennessee. Cause Nico's offense and Josh Heupel’s offense is great. And you got that great Oklahoma defense.’ I thought that was sort of startling for me to hear. These Oklahoma ears to hear, you know, an icon of the SEC saying, ‘Man, look at that OU defense.’ So, I mean, I think the Sooner defense really is good. I think it is potentially special. Brent Venables has done a phenomenal job, but it's not going to be enough to win to the standard that OU wants to win. I don't think the Sooners had any illusions of necessarily making it to Atlanta this year (for the SEC title game). I think they did have the College Football Playoff as a legitimate goal. Try to get to 10-2 or 9-3, but you you can't get there with this kind of offense, no matter how good that defense is.

Jenni: All right, let's get to predictions. Berry, obviously, OU's first SEC road game. They head to Jordan-Hare down in Auburn. And this is a place that somebody that's an Alabama faithful once said that it's cursed, which if you're an Alabama faithful, it is cursed. But it's a tough place to play. 

Also cursed might be this Auburn football team, quite honestly. What's your best guess about how this game goes down?

Berry: Well, I'm going to be honest, Jacko. I don't see any way that you can pick a team to win when you're in the middle of such inefficient quarterbacking and so much quarterback turmoil in, out, in, out, all those things. And that's why I have to pick Oklahoma. 

You think the Sooners have quarterbacking problems? Check out the Auburns. They've thrown eight interceptions in four games, five from Payton Thorne, who was their quarterback last year. It wasn't very good. Hasn't got any better. He gets benched. Hank Brown takes over against Arkansas. He was terrible, throws three picks against the Razorbacks. They put Thorne back in. I guess they're going to go with Thorne. I don't really know, but they got a mess on their hands. They've got a quarterback with no hope. Sooners have a quarterback situation with at least hope. Maybe Michael Hawkins is the real deal. Auburn pretty much knows it does not have a real deal.

I got OU, 21-10.

Jenni: Yeah, I think Oklahoma is actually going to figure out a way to win this one. I have it a little lower scoring. I'm going 17-13, but I think that this Oklahoma defense is really, really good. Thirteen might be on the high side for me. You said 10. I wouldn't be surprised if it was single digits for Auburn. But yeah, I think Oklahoma's defense is going to rule the day. 

Real quick, Berry, before we let you get out here, anything coming up in the Tulsa World people want to be paying attention to?

Berry: I'm gonna write about the politics of changing quarterbacks in mid game. We saw two of those in our state Saturday. And also I’ll write a little bit by the end of the week on the home field advantage of Auburn. It might be the best home field in the SEC when you consider all things Jordan-Hare, quite the spectacle for college football.